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[00:03] - Episode z cyklu Debaty Ufologiczne. Witamy wszystkich państwa bardzo gorąco i serdecznie Welcome to this special episode of Ufological Debates Online. Today, we would like to invite you all to listen to an interview with Philip Mantle, a ufology researcher from the UK. The interview will be conducted by Piotr Cielebiaś from Polish magazine, Nieznany Świat. The discussion will be about the Pascagoula case. Today, we will try to look at this case in as much depth as possible. This program will be published as a podcast and we look forward to your comments. This is Marek Sęk "Ivellios" speaking to you. I will be dealing with all the technical stuff. Now, let me give the floor to Piotr Cielebiaś.

[00:57] - Dobry wieczór wszystkim.

[01:02] - Good evening, everyone. Our guest today is Philip Mantle, a well-known English ufologist, publicist, and writer. Today's program is in unusual form because in order to make it easier to edit later, Philip and I have agreed to ask questions in Polish, and of course, Philip has the list of questions in English, too.

[01:27] - Jakby ktoś się pytał, jak to wszystko przebiegało technicznie, chętnie na to pytanie odpowiemy. To jest taka nasza troszkę, nasz, nasz

[01:34] - This is the first time we will be interviewing a guest who doesn't speak Polish.

[01:39] - Także oczekujcie na więcej. Ale to takie kwestie techniczne. Jak powiedziałem naszym

[01:47] - As I said, our guest today is Philip Mantle, one of Britain's most famous active UFO researchers. He is the owner of the Flying Disc Press, which publishes new books with very high frequency. We invite you to visit their website. Of course, all the links to Flying Disc Press' website and their books will be put in the description.

[02:11] - Ale dzisiaj skupimy się na, na

[02:13] - Today, we are going to focus on something that Philip has spent a lot of time to research. Flying Disc Press has also published several book on this case. We are going to talk about the Pascagoula incident. After years of silence, one of the two main witnesses to this incident decided to tell what happened at the time, and other witnesses have also come forward, bringing more detail to the story. This incident is special for several reasons. It features a number of shocking details, the very unusual appearance of the humanoid aliens, as well as everything that happened afterward, including the witnesses going to the police and the later effects of this encounter, which were more paranormal and involved various kinds of messages.

[03:05] - Efekty uboczne tego spotkania, które miały już charakter bardziej paranormalny i wiązały się z różnego rodzaju przesłaniami. Ale nim przejdziemy do

[03:13] - But before we get into the details of the incident, Philip, can you tell us something about your relationship with Poland? It is a bit unusual for a Brit, but it turns out you have a close family in Poland.

[03:27] - Well, first of all, I'd just like to say good evening, gentlemen, and thank you for inviting me on your radio show today. For those that are not aware, my involvement in ufology goes back over forty years, right the way back to 1980. I live in the county of West Yorkshire in the north of England, and a local UFO group had just begun. It was simply called the Yorkshire UFO Society, and it was started by two brothers, Graham and Mark Birdsall, and they hosted meetings in the city of Leeds once a month. So I went to their first meeting, and I had had a growing interest in the subject, hence my attendance that day, and it was just perfect for me. I joined. I rapidly became more involved in the subject on the research and investigation side. And a few years after that, I joined a national UFO group called the British UFO Research Association, and I served with them for several years. I was their press officer. I was their conference organizer, and just before I finished with them, I was also their director of investigations.

And I was also the representative for England for the Mutual UFO Network. And I was kept very busy since that time. Sadly, I took ill in 1999, so I had to leave these various groups and continue on my own. But what you probably don't know is, although I'm born and bred in England, in West Yorkshire, I do have family in Poland. My father, he died when I was two years of age, but my mother remarried a few years later, and my stepfather was from Poland. He had settled in England at the end of the Second World War. He was in the military, saw active service throughout the Second World War, and was even wounded in action, but thankfully he came through it And my father, I call him my father, worked down the coal mines all his life. And he was called Bronislaw Schinkowski. Not an easy name to say if you're a Yorkshireman or speak English. But sadly, my father died a few years ago.

But 50 years after the Second World War, my father started talking about his family. He never went back to Poland after the war, and he used to write to his mum, but he said his father and his brother were also in the military, and they were killed in action. And as far as we knew, it was just his mum that was still alive. However, out of the blue, we started talking about a younger brother who was only a baby at the time. And we managed to find him. He was my Uncle Janusz. Lived in a town whose name I can't pronounce, I'm sorry. But it's spelled L-A-S-I-N, and the L has a little cross over it. And so my father went to Poland for the first time since the Second World War, to meet Uncle Janusz and bring him back to England, and he stayed with us. And then the following year, my Uncle Janusz came again with his wife, and sadly, my father and I were planning to go to Poland together when my father took ill, so we weren't able to go.

But we kept in touch with the family, and sadly, my father passed away, and a few years later, my Uncle Janusz also passed away. But it was a marvelous story, and I still do have relatives there. And so although I've no Polish blood in my veins, gentlemen, I have a close association with your country. And if any of my relatives are listening to this tonight in Poland, God bless, and happy Christmas. There you go.

[08:31] - After this remarkable story, let's move to the Pascagoula case about which you released several books. This story is not completely unknown to Polish readers because some 30 years ago, a book by William Mendes was published in Poland by Nonpress Editions. How did it all start? Who were the main witnesses, and why did they go to the Pascagoula River that day, 11th October 1973?

[09:08] - Yeah. An interesting fact is that the two main witnesses to the Pascagoula encounter were Charles Hickson, who at the time was 42 years of age, and Calvin Parker. Calvin was 18, almost 19 at the time. And why were they fishing on the river that day? Well, Calvin had moved out to Pascagoula to work in the shipyard there at Ingalls Shipyard, where his family friend, Charles Hickson, was a foreman. Calvin was a welder, so they spent a hot day working away in the shipyard. And despite their age difference, 18 and 42, the one thing that both gentlemen were interested in was fishing. They were both great fishermen. So Calvin was driving home that night. He was living with Charles Hickson.

He was boarding with him. And Charlie said, "How about we go fishing tonight?" So they packed their gear. Charlie knew where to go on the river. Calvin had no idea because he didn't live in the area, and it was simply a fishing trip. And they got to one part on the river where they were attacked by insects, so they decided to move. They found an old pier from a little part of a shipyard that was abandoned, and they set up their equipment, their fishing rods. The Pascagoula River is huge. It's shipbuilding on the river, and it goes out to sea. It is a massive thing. And they were just fishing, just an evening's fishing.

Little did they know what was about to change their lives forever, and it wasn't a fish.

[11:05] - Were the witnesses credible? What else can you say about them?

[11:10] - Yeah. The two witnesses in this, we'll start with Charles Hickson. Charles, at the time, as I said, was 42 years of age. He lived in Pascagoula. He had an apartment there with his wife, Blanche, and their family. And he was a foreman at Ingalls Shipyard, a huge, great shipbuilding enterprise. Calvin actually lived 200 miles away in Laurel. But Charlie was a family friend, and Calvin had just got engaged to be married to his childhood sweetheart, Waynett. And he wanted a regular job. He was working several jobs.

So his father said, "Why don't you ring Charlie, see if he can get you a job at the shipyard?" Which he did. And the idea was that Calvin would board, would stay at Charlie's Monday to Friday. And then go home on a weekend. And he would pay him $50 for board and lodgings. And they were extremely reliable gentlemen. They wouldn't stand out in a crowd. Charlie was a veteran. He was in the Korean War, not the Second World War. Calvin was just a young man growing up. He was the tough guy in the family.

He had a brother who was the brains, but they had no interest in the UFO subject, no knowledge of it. And like I said, all they liked to do was the simple things in life. And on that night, they went out to go fishing. And sadly, Charlie died in 2011. Calvin is still alive. He's not in the best of health, but he lives just outside of Pascagoula now in a small place called Moss Point with his childhood sweetheart, Waynette, he later married her, and his family live nearby, of course. But that's all we really knew about the gentlemen. They were just honest, hardworking individuals, and no different from most of the people in the area.

[13:34] - How did the abduction begin? How did they describe the UFO?

[13:41] - Yeah, it's interesting how things started because as I said earlier, Calvin Parker was driving that night, and he didn't know the area, so Charlie gave him directions to park down near the river. And as they were going through there, there was a no entry sign, and this disturbed Calvin somewhat, and Charlie said, "Don't worry about it. I've been fishing here many times." So they drove close to the river, parked the car. Now, Calvin's car, this is an interesting point, was brand new. It was a brand new car. So they parked the car and set up their equipment, started fishing. Like I said, they moved from one spot because there was a lot of flies and insects there, and they sat on an old pier. And Calvin was just looking out across the water. There was a ship in the distance. To their left is a huge bridge that spans the river.

That's part of Highway 90. And the first thing that attracted their attention, bearing in mind they were looking out into the water with their backs to the land, was a blue light. A blue hazy light came from behind them, and it shimmered across the water. Calvin thought, "Oh no, we shouldn't have gone past that no entry sign. The blue light is maybe the police. We're trespassing. Maybe we're going to spend the night in jail." And they both turned around and were amazed, of course, that it wasn't a police car. It was an object that was descending. It was shaped, we would call pretty much like a rugby ball. It was oval in shape.

At the left-hand side of it, there were two lights, and it didn't touch the ground. It stopped about one and a half feet, half a meter off the ground. Didn't touch the ground. And they're standing there, and the light hurt their eyes. It was that bright. And Charlie said he thought at one point on the opposite end, there was like a little bump or a raised area, but it hurt their eyes so much it was difficult to make it out. Then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, on the right-hand side, an opening appeared. It just appeared. They didn't see a door open or a shutter go up or down. And more of this blue light shone out of this opening.

And again, it hurt their eyes even more. And that's how it all began. They were expecting to see the police car, but were stunned, amazed, and frightened to see this thing descending and almost touching the floor in front of them. That's how the abduction began.

[16:50] - The most striking and shocking detail of this case is the appearance of the humanoid aliens. Their appearance was very unusual. To be honest, I have never heard about anything similar. Could you please say something about this? Maybe you heard of cases with similar types of humanoids. There is also the question of whether they were biological living beings, or maybe they were rather of robotic nature, as some of the details seem to indicate.

[17:29] - Yes. Charlie and Calvin are stood there stunned, looking at this object, and I said that an opening appeared on the right-hand side. Out of this opening floated, and I mean floated, three humanoid creatures. Again, like the object, it didn't quite touch the ground. They seemed to float across the ground about six to 18 inches off it. They were reported as being humanoid in shape, but very bizarre looking. They had a head but didn't seem to have any neck There was no eyes or mouth. On the side of the head were two, one on each side, were carrot-like protrusions sticking out. And again, in the middle of the face on the front was a protrusion, a carrot-like thing sticking out. They had arms, their arms were slightly longer than ours.

But on their hands, they didn't have fingers. They looked like mittens, or they also described it looking like a lobster's claw, claw-like hands. Their legs never moved. They remained stuck together, and their feet were kind of stumpy. They were gray in color from head to foot. Both Calvin and Charlie both described these creatures as the surface of their body was gray and wrinkly. He described it looking like elephant skin, and they literally floated towards the two startled fishermen. Two got ahold of Charlie, and one got ahold of Calvin, and moved them towards this object. Later descriptions, they thought they might be robotic because they seemed to move in an artificial way rather than natural. But it was only a suggestion.

They really didn't know. And really bizarre descriptions, and I've looked through many UFO books and websites and magazines to try and find any creatures that would match these, and up to now, I haven't found any. So, so far as we are aware, the descriptions of the creatures at Pascagoula are unique to this case. I can't find anywhere else.

[20:23] - What about the procedure that was done to the witnesses when they were already inside the UFO? It turns out that another strange part of the story is that they were dragged inside the UFO by force.

[20:36] - Yes, the procedure. Now, like I said, two of these creatures got ahold of Charlie. One got ahold of Calvin, floated them towards this opening. As they go through the opening, Calvin was taken to the left, and he didn't see what happened to Charlie. He was gone. Calvin tells me he was taken into a room where there was a glass table, completely transparent at an angle, and he was placed on this table. He laid back on it, and he couldn't move. He was completely paralyzed. The only thing he could move were his eyes. So he's trying to look around this room and an object from the ceiling, he didn't see where it came from, it just came from the ceiling.

He said it was about the size of a pack of cards, just a small object. Stopped in front of him and circled him, went round him, underneath the table and around him, and he made a clicking noise as if it was checking something or taking photographs. He had no idea what it was. This creature, this humanoid, stood there motionless, didn't move, and then Calvin saw some other movement, and another being appeared, totally different to the previous one. This was more human-like. Calvin thought it was a female. She looked pretty much human, but her middle fingers were very much longer than ours. And she opened Calvin's mouth and put this long finger in his mouth and up his nostril and hurt him. They removed his clothing, or his lower half of his clothing, his trousers, and his shoes and socks. And this is an interesting thing to note here.

Calvin says they stuck something in his foot, and it hurt. This lady then disappeared again. She was dressed. He had no idea what was happening to Charlie. Charlie later described a similar procedure, but he didn't see any female. He just saw these two creatures, and again, something appeared out of the ceiling. Charlie described the thing he seen like a large eye, like a large eyeball, and it went around him. Both guys were terrified, gentlemen. They were really terrified. And they thought they were going to die.

Charlie said, "If you're going to kill me, kill me now. Don't let me suffer." But he went back in his mind, to the days when he was in the military, when he was fighting in the Korean War. And he saw active service. He was in a number of major battles. And he remembered one incident when they were pinned down by enemy gunfire, and he thought, "We're going to get killed here." But his captain said, "Don't panic. Don't worry. Just stay calm, and we'll get out of here." And of course they did. So he adopted that kind of stance while on board this thing. "Don't panic. We'll get out of here." At some point, they were both lifted up, taken back outside, and placed back on the pier where they'd been fishing.

Charlie was the first to come to his senses, and he come around and his first thought was for Calvin, his young companion. And he said Calvin was stood there with his arms up in front of him, looking out to sea. And Charlie went up to him and shook him and said, "Are you all right, son? Are you all right?" And it brought him to his senses. They turned around, this thing rose slightly, and then it was gone. It was gone in a flash and left the two terrified witnesses wondering what on Earth had happened.

[24:48] - After this experience, the horrified witnesses went to the police station. What was the reaction of the police officers?

[24:58] - Yes. When the abduction was over, Charlie and Calvin had a discussion about what to do. "What should we do now?" Calvin just said, "Don't tell anybody." He was off his head. He was extremely upset. Said, "Don't tell anyone. They'll think we're crazy." So that was their first thought. They walked back to Calvin's car. Now, remember, I told you Calvin's car was brand new. When they got to the car and they opened the door, the passenger window was shattered, that just fell out. So there was glass all over the place.

When Calvin tried to start the car, it wouldn't start. It took about 20 attempts for it to start, and off they went. As they're driving to go back home, Charlie had a change of heart. He said, "No, we must tell someone. What if that thing comes back and does this to someone else? What if it's an attack?" So they pulled into a local convenience store that had a payphone, a telephone, because this is October the 11th, 1973. There's no mobile phones, and Charlie, being a former military man, decided to ring the nearby air base, which was at a place called Keesler, Keesler Air Force Base. So they phoned Keesler Air Force Base, and they said, "We don't deal with UFOs anymore. Project Blue Book closed in 1969. Just phone the local authorities.

Thank you very much. Bye-bye." So they phoned the police, and the police put them through to the sheriff's department. This was Jackson County jurisdiction, and they said, "Stay there, and we'll come and get you." So they were escorted back into Pascagoula, and they ended up at Jackson County Sheriff's Department, where Sheriff Fred Diamond, and his captain, Glenn Ryder, interviewed both gentlemen. When they first got the call through, Glenn Ryder told us they just laughed. They thought this was funny. But they could see how distressed Calvin was. And they were skeptical. So they interviewed both witnesses separately, and then they placed them in a room together and left them for a while. So Charlie and Calvin are in this room. There's no police officers in it, no sheriff's department, and they're still talking about what's happened.

Unbeknown to them, in the desk next to them is a tape recorder that is running and had been set running by the sheriff's department to try and catch them out. The sheriff's department came, retrieved this tape. Again, Charlie and Calvin had no idea about it. They played it back thinking they'd hear both guys saying how we've fooled them, what a great prank this was. But quite the opposite. Calvin is close to tears. He's even saying his prayers at one point, and he just wants to go home. So the law enforcement gentlemen were initially very skeptical, but once they listened to what became known as the secret tape, they changed their mind, and they ended up believing the guys. And it was the secret tape that did it.

[28:45] - Another shocking element of the Pascagoula story is that the younger of the witnesses, Calvin Parker, had a nervous breakdown, and for a long time, he was unwilling to contact anyone. How did this story resurface, and how did he get in touch with you?

[29:08] - Yes. I think it's fair to say that the younger of the two witnesses, Calvin Parker, suffered greatly from this encounter. He went back home. Remember, he didn't live in Pascagoula. He went back home. He didn't really tell anyone what had happened. He went and stayed at his brother's house. And only a couple of weeks after the event, Calvin said just one night out of the blue, he was at home with his brother, and he started to shake. And he literally could not stop shaking. So his brother, being concerned, took him to the hospital, to the ER department, the emergency room.

And Calvin got a bit agitated in there because he thought he should've been seen straight away. But they confirmed he'd had a kind of a breakdown, if you like. And he got looked after in the hospital and made it home again. One of the reasons why Calvin didn't want to tell anybody, because he just got engaged to Waynette And they were planning to get married. And he thought his Waynett's father would say, "You can't marry my daughter. You're crazy." But he didn't, and they got married, and what happened was, is Calvin sort of went into seclusion. He didn't want to talk about it. Charlie was the opposite. Charles Hickson was quite open. He thought this was important.

He wanted to talk about it. And like I said, Charlie died in 2011. Calvin didn't really contact me. It was the other way around. You mentioned earlier on that Charles Hickson and William Mendez wrote a book. It's called "UFO Contact at Pascagoula." It was published in Polish. I have a copy of that. And it was published in English. Now, me at Flying Disc Press, I obtained the rights to republish that book, and I didn't know if Calvin was alive or dead. I couldn't find an obituary about him.

And the last interview I saw him give was in 2013. So I decided to try and find him just to try and get an interview with him, not for anything else. And it took me several months, but I was eventually given an email address for him, which he replied to. He then gave me his phone number, and I phoned him, and again, there was no talk about a book or anything like that. I just wanted an interview with him. And he was very polite, but it was clear he wasn't that interested. But unbeknown to me, guys, his wife, Waynett, had recently suggested that he write a book. They'd been to somewhere where Calvin was recognized, and people were pointing fingers and things like that. And she said, "If you write it in a book, everybody will know your story. They don't have to bother you." So he didn't contact me.

It was the other way around. And it was then I suggested, because he said, "I'm thinking of writing a book." He had no intention of writing a book. That was just to keep on the good books with his wife, so to speak. But then once I was there, I offered him the chance to write the book, and much to my surprise, he accepted. And so that's how we resurfaced. It took me three months to find him. I was looking for him, not the other way around.

[33:30] - As you said, Hickson was much more open to talk about the incident, and he was the one who took part in the hypnosis sessions. He is also one of the authors of the book, "UFO Contact at Pascagoula". What did these regression hypnosis sessions reveal? Did any new details come to light? Why did he seem less affected by the incident than Parker?

[33:54] - Yes. The older witness, Charles Hickson, for his book with William Mendez, he underwent regressive hypnosis. During our research as well, gentlemen, we found out that in the 1980s, Mr. Hickson also went under hypnosis with Bud Hopkins twice, and I have copies of those tapes, and a transcript of the sessions. I think the reason why Mr. Hickson wasn't so affected as Calvin was firstly the age difference, but certainly his military training also played a big part. He mentions it several times during his book that he went back and relied on his military training. And what was interesting about the regressions is that they mentioned two other incidents in his past when he was a young boy that may be classed as a similar type of experience. But Charlie did handle it much better. He thought something extremely important had happened to them, and that Charlie was going to be part of it, whatever it was, of something big going to happen, and he thought people should know about this.

So he went on TV chat shows. He went on "The Dick Cavett Show," which was a big thing in the US. He persuaded Calvin to go on "The Mike Douglas Show," and Calvin didn't like it. And Calvin was still very bitter that the story had got out, and he tried to keep away from it. He wanted Charlie to stop speaking about it. But Charlie would speak anywhere. He spoke at a couple of UFO conferences. He would speak at your local church hall. And so he thought that the hypnosis was important. And for whatever reason, he was just able to deal with it better.

I think, like I said, the fact that he saw active service in the Korean War helped enormously. On the other hand, Calvin, he had an older brother, sorry, a younger brother. Now, he always said that his younger brother was the brains of the family, and Calvin was the brawn. He was the tough guy. So Calvin's used to being able to fight and work his way out of things physically. But in this encounter, he was rendered completely hopeless. There was nothing he could do, and that was a hard thing for him to understand. But Charlie was completely different. What we did down the years, we've made the transcripts of these hypnosis sessions available so people can see them. And there are people that don't agree with hypnosis.

I understand why, but they are fascinating nonetheless. But certainly, Charlie thought this was important rather than something bad.

[37:21] - It seems that Hickson did indeed become somewhat of a celebrity and spoke about the incident everywhere. However, this must have caused some skeptical reactions, which is natural in this type of story. What did the skeptics accuse the witnesses of most often?

[37:38] - Yeah, Charlie Hickson did become a little bit of a celebrity, if you like, because he went public, went on a national TV chat show. And Charlie would get letters, hundreds of them, from all over the place. He'd be visited by well-known people. People may know Erich von Däniken. He visited Charlie at his home in Pascagoula. But they went to do another TV show. To give you an example, you ask about the skeptics. The main skeptic throughout this era is a gentleman called Philip Klass. He was a science journalist, not a scientist. He was a science journalist.

He's passed away now, but he was the main skeptic. And Charlie persuaded Calvin to meet him at this particular place where this television show was happening, and Philip Klass was there. And for some reason, the TV show didn't go ahead. So the guy who was organizing it took the three gentlemen, Philip Klass, Charlie Hickson, Calvin Parker, for dinner just across the road, took them for dinner. And Calvin didn't really know what the conversation was about, but he began listening to Philip Klass, and Philip Klass was calling his friend, Charles Hickson, a liar, saying, "You've made all this up." Now, of course, if Charlie's a liar, that means he's calling Calvin a liar as well because both gentlemen were in it together. So Calvin intervened, and he told Mr. Klass, "I don't care if you don't believe us. That's entirely up to you. But if you ever call us a liar again, you're going to be in big trouble." And he meant you're going to be in trouble. So Calvin and Charlie were asked to leave, and they made their way home that night with no dinner.

But that's how the skeptics reacted. I spoke to one gentleman who watched it unfold on television, and he said you would see one TV channel treat it seriously, then you switch it over to a different TV channel, and they were just making a fool of them, joking and laughing about it. But the main skeptic, Philip Klass, he tried his best to, what I would say, throw dirt, throw mud at this case. And I obtained a copy of his complete file that he has on the Pascagoula case, and you can see when you read through the file that Philip Klass was not trying to conduct any form of investigation. He was just trying to find some dirt on these two gentlemen, especially the older guy, because Calvin had disappeared. And he couldn't find any. He couldn't find any whatsoever. We must remember as well, of course, that just a couple of days after the event, Dr. Allen Hynek and Dr. James Harder appeared in Pascagoula, and they interviewed both gentlemen.

Charlie was put under hypnosis by Dr. Harder. They were given an examination. They went to the hospital. They also went to Keesler Air Force Base to be checked for radiation, and Keesler asked them to tell him the story. Remember, that was the first phone call they made to Keesler Air Force Base. And Dr. Hynek held a press conference before he left Pascagoula and said something definitely happened to these gentlemen, and you should treat them with respect. But Philip Klass couldn't find any information to discredit them whatsoever, and his file makes interesting reading.

[41:43] - This is not the end of the strange elements of the Pascagoula story. It turns out that this event was strictly material. Aliens arrive, take the guys away, and perform some sort of examination on them. As it turned out, Hickson later experienced further encounters which were more paranormal. Interestingly, however, he claimed to have received some kind of messages from these strange-looking beings. The message was that the humanity would soon need help from the aliens and that they would return. The question is, had Parker received any kind of similar messages?

[42:22] - Yeah. Charlie Hickson, his story didn't finish on October the 11th. What Charlie said was that every now and again, completely out of the blue, he would hear voices Not necessarily in his head. He might be outside. And they gave him messages, and he believed it was these beings that he'd met before, and that something massive was going to happen on Earth, and he was going to be some way connected to it. I'll give you an example. A chap who I didn't know at the time, a chap called Stefanos Panagiotakis, in 1981, was a merchant seaman in the Greek merchant navy. But he was also a UFO researcher, and their ship that they were on docked at Pascagoula. So he went in search of Charlie Hickson to get an interview with him, which he did. And Charlie Hickson thought this Greek man turning up was amazing.

It was confirmation that something was going to happen. And then, of course, sometime later, they were on a family outing, and it was actually Mother's Day. They were going to see his mother, but in the car with him on the way back was his wife and family, and they saw another UFO, the whole family, and it came down very low. And Charlie thought, "They've come back for me." And he tried to get out of the car, because he thought, "This is it." He thought whatever was going to happen, this was it. But his family wouldn't allow him out of the car, and the UFO disappeared. As for Calvin Parker, he didn't receive any messages as such, not like Charlie, but he had another encounter in 1993. He went fishing again, but this time on his own. But he wasn't standing on the side of the river. He went out in a small boat. He only intended to go for a few hours, so he took a sandwich with him and some water to drink.

It was a nice day. And he remembers being there, and he saw this cloud come over, and this cloud opened, and there was something in it. And the next thing he knew, he'd come around in the boat. It was dark. He didn't know what time it was because he didn't wear a watch. So he made his way back to shore, found his car, and his wife had been out looking for him. She'd left a note under his windscreen wiper. So he went back home. He told her that he just had engine trouble on the boat, and she believed it. But Calvin told a friend about what had happened.

Now, his friend knew a little bit about UFOs, and somehow he knew that the late Budd Hopkins, who was probably the best-known abduction researcher, was speaking at a UFO conference in Florida. So him and Calvin drove to Florida to this venue. Calvin didn't go in. His friend went in and found Budd Hopkins and told him, Calvin, he said, "Here. Here's my hotel key. I'll meet him there." So Budd met Calvin for the first time at the hotel. They had a long chat, and Calvin was persuaded to undergo hypnosis with Budd Hopkins in his hotel room. And he did, and I have a copy of the tape and a transcript of it. And again, there are a couple of incidents in Calvin's childhood that you might say are this type of event. Remember I told you about Charlie.

He thought there were a couple of things back in his childhood. But what the hypnosis did as far as Calvin was concerned, he said it clarified some things. Now, one thing I didn't mention, for example, was as they're driving up to the fishing spot that night, there was another car there, and Calvin couldn't remember much about it, but under hypnosis, he did. He remembered everything about it. So it clarified things for him. And what you may not know is that in 2019, Calvin underwent hypnosis again, this time with Kathleen Marden in the States. And again, he said there was no new information, if you like. It was just certain little things were clarified. So he found it very beneficial. But I'll give you an example how even today, Calvin was still frightened.

I obtained a copy of his hypnosis with Budd Hopkins. I had it digitized, and I sent it to Calvin, and Calvin put it onto a CD, and he wouldn't listen to it. It was about six weeks after I sent it to him before he would listen to it. It still bothered him because in part of the tape, you can hear Calvin screaming, and it's not a pleasant thing to hear. So he didn't receive messages, but both gentlemen had, we'll call, another encounter of some description. Calvin was on his own and underwent hypnosis. Charlie was with his wife and family, and they have confirmed what they saw that day. Interesting stuff.

[48:31] - We should note that this message from the aliens in question is probably on the last page or back cover of the book, "UFO Contact at Pascagoula," which, as I mentioned, was published in Polish by No Press Editions. What's interesting, there was another car he saw there. What about the other witnesses of the incident? After all, someone must have been there on that river. Someone could have seen that UFO from the banks. Actually, it turns out that some witnesses did turn up. Does the testimony of other witnesses corroborate Parker's and Hickson's accounts?

[49:11] - Yeah. What we must remember about the Pascagoula case is where this happened, it's not in the middle of nowhere. This is not some swamp out in Mississippi. The fishing spot, because the river is so big, the fishing spot is right next to Highway 90, and there is a motorway bridge for cars goes right over the river. Now, when I published Calvin's first book, "Pascagoula: The Closest Encounter", he did some local media, local television, local press, and a little interview with him was posted by somebody on YouTube. And as you know, on most of the YouTube things, you can leave comments. And I'm reading the comments, and there was one comment, and it said, "My mother and father were on the opposite side of the river that night, and they, too, saw the UFO." So that grabbed my attention. I sent this person a message. I found her then on social media, contacted her, and she spoke with her mother and father, and gave me their telephone number. They're Mr.

and Mrs. Blair. And Mr. Blair works in the fishing industry. And they were indeed on the opposite side of the river that night. He was waiting for a boat to come in, and it was late, so he wasn't in the best of moods. And Mrs. Blair said he could see over the other side of the river, and he said he could see this blue thing. Remember Charlie and Calvin talked about the intense blue lights. Said he could see this blue thing moving around.

She said it looked like it didn't know where it was going or as it was looking for something. Mr. Blair said, "Yeah, I saw that, too." And then his boat started to come in. So they were on a little pier. Bear in mind, it's dark now. They're walking along this pier, and Mrs. Blair says, "Right next to me in the water was a splash, big splash." And she said, "I looked down, and there was a gray man in the water." That's how she said that, her words, a gray man in the water. Said he went under the water and didn't come back up. Mr. Blair, at first, didn't say an awful lot about this.

He was a bit reticent. But he later told us, he says, "Yeah, I saw the gray humanoid," that was what he called it, "the gray humanoid, come up out of the water and go heading back across the river." So Mrs. Blair threw his belongings on the boat and run because she had to go back to the car. And of course, she saw the next day Charlie and Calvin's story on the local news. And Mr. Blair said, "Don't tell anybody. They'll think we're nuts." But obviously, they told their family because the lady who left the message on YouTube was one of their daughters. And we spoke at length to them. And Mrs. Blair said, there was something bothered her.

She said, "I can see something out of my peripheral vision, but I can't quite make out what the hell it is." So about a year later, sadly, Mr. Blair took seriously ill, and later passed away. But before he passed away, he told us that they, too, had had an encounter, and he gave us the full details of what they saw, what happened to them. Since then, of her own volition, Mrs. Blair went under regressive hypnosis. This hasn't been released yet, so nobody has seen any of it. And she recounted what happened to her under hypnosis. And again, whether you accept that or not is entirely up to you, but we have done that, and it's fascinating. But they saw the UFO irrespective. I'll give you another example.

Calvin was doing a book signing in Pascagoula one day, and an elderly gentleman with white hair walked up, bought a book, and said, "Oh, by the way, I saw the UFO that night as well." And he walked away. Luckily, somebody was taking photographs, and we had a photograph of this gentleman, and we managed to find him. And he was a chap called Mr. Louis Lee. Now, Mr. Lee was working in the shipyard on the other side of the river that night. He was a crane operator. And he said, "Philip, as soon as I got up into my cab," which is about 10 to 12 feet off the ground, he said, "I could see this thing out across the river." He says, "It's the strangest thing I ever seen." And the only reason he took his eyes off it is because he had a load on the end of his crane, and his friend was shouting at him. And I said, "Did you tell anyone, Mr. Lee?" He said, "Well, I just told my family.

Who are you going to tell back in 1973?" Then we had another chap contact us, called Charles. He's called Charles Anderson. And Mr. Anderson, because one of the complaints, guys, was that nobody from the bridge reported anything. Well, they're wrong. Mr. Anderson did. He said he was driving over the bridge that night in his car with his wife next to him, and of course, they drive on the opposite side of the road in the States, so he was nearest to the water. And he said I saw this blue thing down below. He said, "I didn't know what it was.

I thought whatever it was, it's so low, it's gonna crash." And he said, "I saw it for about 30 seconds." And then he says the next day he went to visit an aunt who lived down by the river, and he said, "Before I even opened my mouth, she said, 'You'd never guess what I saw last night.'" So those are just examples, gentlemen. And there are lots more. There are other people that saw things a few days before and a few days afterwards, and on that day in question. But these are just examples, and we've interviewed all of these people, myself and my colleague in the States, Dr. Irena Scott, who lives in Ohio. And we have them all on tape, and it's fascinating. Most of them were at an age now where they couldn't care less what anybody thought, and they've told their stories. But especially interesting is Mr. and Mrs. Blair, because of what they've had to say, and they were the closest, I think, to Calvin and Charlie's vantage point.

What is interesting, I don't know if it makes any sense, but I asked Calvin. I said, "Before the encounter happened, you stood on the pier with your fishing rod. You're gazing out across the water. What can you see?" And he said, "There's a boat going out. There's the road bridge going over." And he said, "Over there, I can see two figures." Now, were those two figures Mr. and Mrs. Blair? I don't know, but makes you think, doesn't it?

[57:10] - Where can our listeners find some additional information about the Pascagoula case? Which books published by Flying Disc Press do you recommend? Where can we find them?

[57:25] - Yes, Flying Disc Press. Like I said, I managed to republish the book written by Charles Hickson and William Mendes, simply called "UFO Contact at Pascagoula." And it was previously published in Polish, but it's in English and Spanish at the moment. So that's what kicked it all off. Calvin Parker's first book was simply called "Pascagoula: The Closest Encounter, My Story" by Calvin Parker. We followed that up with "Pascagoula: The Story Continues." That book is also written by Calvin Parker. Tells you some more of what we uncovered, like the hypnosis tapes and things of that nature. So the transcripts of the Bud Hopkins tapes are in there. And then there's another book called "Beyond Pascagoula," and that's written by my colleague, Dr. Irena Scott. And again, there's more information there as we started to uncover it.

What is interesting is that Dr. Scott will tell you that on that night of October the 11th, 1973, she wasn't at home in Ohio. She was away from home studying for her PhD when her mother phoned her. And her mother said there's been this huge sonic boom overhead. And Irena, being the scientist that she is, looked into it. This sonic boom went halfway across the United States, and it was recorded, and she has done her best to find where this sonic boom originated and cannot find an explanation for it. So on that night in America, not in Pascagoula, it was across the other half of the United States, there was a huge sonic boom. And Irena reckons that it is the second loudest noise ever recorded on Earth, and she could find no explanation for it. So all that's in her book as well. There's also a small book by Stefanos Panagiotakis, and it's like a travelogue.

It tells the story of him sailing on the ship. I told you he was in the merchant navy. Out to Pascagoula, he found and interviewed Charles Hickson. He also found another independent witness who saw the UFO that night, a chap called Emmanuel Sigalas, who was a local clergyman, was a pastor, and Stefanos interviewed him. And we have a transcript of that as well, of course. So we have a number of books, and next year, all of this will be condensed, and all the new witnesses that we've uncovered and all the new hypnosis will be published next year because it is the 50th anniversary. So, I would recommend any of those books for you, and they're all on Amazon.

[01:00:35] - Links to all the books will be posted under our podcast on YouTube. Can you tell us more about Flying Disc Press? What other books can we find there, and what are your plans in general?

[01:00:52] - Yes, it's interesting. What you haven't told anybody, Peter, is that the first book that Flying Disc Press ever published was yours, "UFOs Over Poland." That was the first book that I published, and I would recommend it to anyone, and that's not just because I'm speaking to you. It is an excellent book. So Next year we have a whole string of books being lined up. So we will have our new book on the Pascagoula case, that's called "Beyond Reasonable Doubt: The Pascagoula Alien Abduction". It'll come out around this time next year or a bit earlier for the anniversary. It will be published in French and Spanish at the same time. But then I've got a number of books from first time authors, so they're talking about their own encounters, their own experiences. Have another book on all things strange from Ryan Musgrave-Evans in Australia. So there's more books coming out next year.

One book I'm working on now with a colleague called Colin Saunders. Colin observed what is called a flying triangle UFO here in the UK. Him and his wife and his daughter and his mother-in-law saw it at very close quarters and Colin has written a book all about that and other triangle sightings here in the UK. So that'll be coming at some point. Believe it or not, I'm going slightly different as well. I'm going to deviate slightly. I'm going to even have a huge book about King Arthur, that will be probably around about February of next year. So a whole selection of books, mainly about UFOs, but a few with a paranormal twist as well. All coming next year.

[01:03:02] - We invite everyone to visit the website of the Flying Disc Press and to look for these books on Amazon. We will be talking about several of them in our programs in Polish. However, let's go back to Pascagoula for a moment. What do you think, why don't we have any more cases like this today?

[01:03:22] - That's an interesting question, Peter. If you look at the UFO subject in general, it seems to change down the years, it evolves. And what we do know is that 1973, the year of the Pascagoula case, there was a huge wave of sightings across the United States, many of which had humanoid attached to them. And next year there will be a book about this wave simply called "1973" by the well-known author in the States, Kevin Randle. But like I said, ufology evolves, whether we like it or not. If you go back to the beginning, it was very simple things that were witnessed around about the Kenneth Arnold time. And then in the 1950s, we had the Space Brothers. They've gone. In the 1960s, of course, was the first abduction with Betty and Barney Hill. And now, of course, what everybody's mad about is so-called Tic Tac UFOs because of the Navy video that was released in 2017.

So there may be cases like this, but if they are, I'm certainly not aware of them. My first ever book, it was published in 1994, was called "Without Consent" and dealt with abduction accounts here in the UK. And I don't get very many of them anymore. Why that is, I don't know. But maybe the phenomena is evolving again, and maybe if we talked in a few years time, it will have changed yet again. You'd be asking me other questions. But I have wondered why we don't get cases like that, and I don't have an answer. I don't know the answer to that question, Peter, but it's an exceptionally good question.

[01:05:44] - We also have tried to answer this question many times during the ufological debates online in Polish, and our conclusions are similar. However, talking about Pascagoula, today there is a small memorial place there, and it contains a Polish element because the illustration it features was made by our friend, the wonderful graphic designer Sebastian Woszczyk. How would you estimate the value of the Pascagoula incident for ufology in general? Do you think it was a groundbreaking case that remains little known despite everything?

[01:06:20] - Yes. Going back to Pascagoula, there is now a historical marker near the site where it happened. It's not exactly bang on the site because the old pier has gone, but it's very close to the site. And it was actually a charity , excuse me, in Pascagoula that raised the money for this historical marker. We only played a small part in it. They put the wording together for it, and they made a couple of mistakes, which we had them change. And Sebastian, your colleague from Poland, who's designed many of our book covers, had done a piece of artwork based on the Pascagoula case, and I thought it was superb. Still think it's incredible And I asked Sebastian if they could use it on the historical marker and he gave his permission. So not only is his artwork there, there's his name underneath the artwork because it gets credited for it. So we even have another Polish connection to the Pascagoula case.

Now the marker was officially unveiled in 2019 by the mayor. So this was an official unveiling and a lot of people gathered there as well as the media. Calvin was interviewed standing next to the marker and he was in tears. And he said when he passes away, he wants his ashes scattered in that area. And he also has a copy of the marker himself. So they gave him a copy which he has hanging on his wall at home. And I think it's very important that we recognize these events and there are other markers around the world, I know. But certainly in the United States, I don't know where one has been unveiled while the people are still alive. I may be wrong in that, but I think it's significant. And long may it last, may it stay there for a long time and hopefully it'll be there for a long time after we've all gone, gentlemen.

But I think it is very significant.

[01:08:54] - It is indeed significant because usually the memorials are put in places where some event took place long time ago and its witnesses passed away. Examples include Emilcin in Poland. Thank you very much, Philip. This interview is a great material. I think that a lot of people, even those who are already familiar with the Pascagoula case, will reach out to the literature you have provided. They will visit Flying Disk Press website and read books, including the one written by Calvin Parker. We hope that this is not our last meeting on the radio and you will visit us again sometime in the Ufological Debates Online because we have a lot of things to talk about. Thank you.

[01:09:40] - Thank you very much, gentlemen. Good night and God bless, and I'm sure this will not be the last visit to your radio station. Thank you very much.

[01:09:49] - The interview was conducted for you by Piotr Cielebiaś from the Polish magazine Nieznany Świat. Marek Sęk "Ivellios" speaking to you took care of the technical aspect of this podcast. You were listening to Radio Paranormalium, the paranormal voice at your home. Thank you for listening and good night. By the way, if you speak or understand Polish, we invite you to have a look at our programs in Polish as well. Don't forget to visit our website at paranormalium.pl.